How long can they get away with it?

8 Responses

1.   The Democratic Double Standard by 2 Hangmen

   September 15th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

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   [...] How long can they get away with it? [...]

2. Jim Cook

   September 15th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

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   Ben, nice attempt at obfuscation and misdirection. but I didn’t criticize earmarks in the post you refer to. I merely criticized what seems to be a blatent disregard for the facts. The McCain campaign has repeatedly distorted Palin’s record. This time it was the Wall Street Journal for pity’s sake that caught McCain making things up. Not the “liberal mainstream press.”

   Your rant is more of the same tired right wing tactics: When you get caught with your pants down, scream that someone else is naked. Unfortunately for you, in this case the emperor without any clothes is McCain.

3. Ben

   September 15th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

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   Sorry, I misunderstood. So you’re talking about things like Obama saying he’d take public funding in the general election and then turning it down?
   Or maybe you mean things like Obama contradicting his own stance on NAFTA?

   I admit that Palin’s acceptance of earmarks, and McCain’s denial of them, was a mistake.

   The problem you and the rest of the Democrats are having is that for the last 8 years you haven’t had to run on your own merit. All you’ve had to do was run against Bush and the Republicans. Now, when it comes time that you have to show the nation some substance, all you can do is say “McCain would be another 4 years of Bush.” (Which by the way, is another statement that Obama uses frequently even though he has publicly stated that McCain would be a better president than Bush was.)

   Thanks for providing me another example of my point… when Republicans contradict themselves or the facts, its lying and when the Democrats and Obama do it, it’s changing your mind or misspeaking etc.

   Lying is lying and it’s bad no matter which party does it. But don’t stand there attacking McCain as if Obama hasn’t done the same thing whenever it suits him.

4. Jim Cook

   September 15th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

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   Ben,

   “I admit that Palin’s acceptance of earmarks, and McCain’s denial of them, was a mistake.”

   Thank you.

   Now a little vocabulary lesson and we’ll be almost done.

   If a person says they will do something and then they change their mind, you can interpret it one of two ways: They lied or they changed their mind. Changing your mind does not necessarily make you a liar.

   If a person says something that is refuted by the facts at the time he says it. Well, it’s a lie or he didn’t care enough about the truth to check the facts before he made them up. I don’t see much room for interpretation there.

   Finally, while I made fun of McCain, criticizing him (or Palin, or earmarks) was not the point. In case you missed the point, here it is again. The Republicans are once again trying to foist upon their own constituency a “leader” whose record doesn’t match their standard right-wing rhetoric. That’s not necessarily a bad thing (I don’t like their rhetoric), I just wonder how long the social and fiscal conservatives will continue to allow themselves to be lied to.

5. Robert

   September 15th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

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   Let’s talk about ’substance.’ Over the last TWO Republican presidencies, unemployment rose, the disparity b/w the rich and the poor widened and the budget deficits were at record levels. Evidence shows that the Republican platform of trickle down economics doesn’t work, but they seem to cling to it. After the last democratic president, unemployment was low, thre was a downturn in the income gap, and we had a budget SURPLUS! I don’t care if Obama doesn’t change Washington, at least it will change the platform… cause the Republican platform is broken and all I hear out of the McCain camp is similar plans for the economy.

   As for your analysis of the “double standard,” I have to disagree. It is the Republicans showing a double standard… because the minute Democrats start fighting back, the Republicans howl “unfair!” It’s fine, for Republicans to lie and disparage their opponents… but when a Democrat turns around and starts defending themselves by pointing out their opponents deeds… it’s a double standard. This is an election, both sides are going to stretch their platform to appeal to the most voters, but by comparing a change in opinion after being given the facts to an outright lie is a bit suspect.

   It’s interesting that now people are getting over the ridiculous ravings of “sexist” remarks and people are seriously taking a look at the candidates, that Republicans are doing their best to scream ‘foul.’

   You do a good job though, had I not learned the basic fallacies and learned to critically think… I’d have no way to look past the bs in your post.

6. Ben Cook

   September 15th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

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   Robert, I would actually agree with you that all the uproar about the “lipstick” comment is ridiculous and I think all these calls for people to apologize is just dumb.

   Now, I do think the “she has a baby, she can’t be VP” stance was just as idiotic and blatantly sexist. After all, has anyone suggested Obama being President would cause him to be an absentee father?

   But yes, by and large I would say the Republicans that howl about the Obama attacks are being hypocritical as well.

   And, I think you honestly stated what Obama supporters really want. They don’t want a change in the way Washington works (as Obama proclaims), they just want their side to be in power. They want, as you put it, a change in the agenda.

   But again, look at your comment in light of my post. You’re not denying that the democrats are making liberal use of a double standard when it comes to the issues that are at the core of Obama’s campaign, you’re basically saying The Republicans are doing it too!

7. Jim Cook

   September 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

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   The problem with the double standard argument is that it generates only heat and no light. It merely says, “Your guy is as bad as ours.”

8. Robert

   September 15th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

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   I have to disagree about your interpretation of my comment… I didn’t use the “Repbulicans are doing it too.” I said the Democrats were fighting back, and that’s when Republicans cry foul. I did not imply that the Democrats were lying, I said both sides stretch to reach their base. I do think a bit of stretching is standard in campaigns, but the fact is McCain is outright lying… check it out (supposedly from independent, nonpartisan groups): http://www.mccainpedia.org/index.php/Count_the_Lies

   It’s about time that the Democratic party grew teeth!

   I appreciate you not blasting me though… tends to be that we can no longer have a conversation… it’s just blasting each other. I thank you for the respect you’ve provided, and I’m glad that I get to see both sides through both of your blogs! I think you both are doing a great service by posing the two extremes on one site.